This post is about a potential Threadless backlash, I’ve seen a few signs of it in recent months and I’ve aggregated those opinions and added my own. I think Threadless are in danger of peaking. I’ve framed this as “7 reasons why threadless don’t rule (as much as they used to)” in response to the Signal vs Noise post “7 reasons why threadless rule” here http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/68-7-reasons-why-threadless-rules#extended
No doubt there will be a lot of changes now that they are funded by Insight and not accountable to just their community, but to their business backers. Taking VC at some point was probably inevitable and it will open up many more opportunities. It doesn’t mean you have to sell out your principals, but its only natural that people will be watching closely for a on opportunity to shout “sell out”. Especially when you have previously cited your credibility came from not having outside investors:
“We pride ourselves on being DIY. We started with $500 and have worked our way up to here without any investors. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the casserole – especially if some of the cooks only care about how many people it will feed and not how it tastes! 
†It also makes for a great PR angle and is a big reason why the company retains cred with its fans.â€
Anyway I don’t see the VC funding as relevant so lets get on with the 7 reasons:
1. The Community is getting messy
I spent many hours categorizing every post that appeared on the blog forum over seven days for my thesis. At that point although there were a lot of off topic posts the breakdown was something like this (these are just separate posts, I did also categorized replies):
497 – Posts
200 – Related in someway to Threadless as a company, designs undergoing scoring etc
197 – Off topic, social posts with nothing to do with Threadless.
Only 16 posts about stp’s at that point, that figure has definitely increased since. 59 of those 197 I classified as being requests for design help, requests for feedback from designs, discussion of designs undergoing scoring.
I bet if I did this again it would be a different picture, one of the commenter’s on signal vs noise summed this up nicely
“I was turned onto Threadless by a designer friend a while ago and when I first visited I found it immensely cool, but I started reading the blog comments and found myself transported to a mall food court. It would be nice if discussions there were more about critique and design, or at least elevated above swapping Street Team Points like spit, but I don’t know how they could moderate that without alienating customers.”
Sure Skinnycorp builds communities, I think it might be time to segregate/regulate them a little more. I loved the design collaboration/feedback part of the model. There’s a shared experience in the design contest model that makes it much easier to form a community. Thats getting lost at the moment. I don’t think an illustrator would get as much support or stimulating conversation as in previous years. Intelligent discussion is getting lost and diluted in stp chatter.
2. Shipping times
I’ve seen the shipping times quoted as up to 9 days, I think it averages around 5? Hire some more staff, its a very scalable business model, I don’t think you should ever have to wait more than 24hrs to have your tee shipped. The forum is littered with posts like this about the length of shipping times. In fairness this is a problem acknowledged by Threadless in a number of places.
3. Bad tee quality
They are much better than they were, but still the quality is much lower than their rivals (in fairness so are the prices ) Why not offer half the print run in AA and the other half the standard brand. Raise the price for the AA ones by $3. If the quality of AA in the US isn’t high (as they suggested at sxsw) then there are plenty of alternatives. I’d rather pay a little more to showcase a great illustration by having it on a high quality tshirt.
Another comment from Signal vs Noise summed this up
“I personally find the quality of the normal (Fruit of the Loom) shirts horrible. The fit is bad, material is uncomfortable and color fades fast. I own about 6 of these and they are all the same. Awesome design, bad canvas. “
4. Artists should be better compensated
Yeah its a sweet deal relative to freelance design wages, but thats not a fair equivalent. If I’m hired freelance theres a good chance that unless my designs a steaming turd I’m going to get paid. At threadless your odds of a payday aren’t high. You don’t need to do it to get better submissions, but it’ll help keep the proposition competitive and increase buy-in. $2000 plus 2% would be enough to blow most competitors out of the water. If not then re-payment on reprint seems a no brainer, if something is popular enough to make it financially viable to reprint it then why not share the love.
The Oddica model is not directly comparable as the exposure offered from winning Threadless is a lot higher, and they sell much less. But its an interesting counter proposition and shows the direction things are heading in, particularly as the technology behind the design contest model becomes increasingly commoditised.
5. Printing too many of each design
I’ve seen at least five other people in Pandamonium, and this is in the UK. I guess this must happen even more in the US? I don’t think there should be reprints, when its gone its gone. I’d like to see more designs printed in smaller quantities. I know this adds complexity and reduces scale economies but tshirt printing isn’t expensive and lead times are short. Especially when its powered by a demand gauge as effective as the threadless community. Print less, of more.
6. Too popular
You can only ever be cool once. This was something I learn’t from working at Microsoft. Its completely true, if you lose it you cant get it back. If everyone loves you you’re on a slippery slope towards uncooldom. I was once on the top deck of a bus in Cambridge with two other people wearing Threadless tees, different tees but still 3 different Threadless tees, one half of a bus. This wasn’t the hipster party bus either it was the park and ride. Maybe this is something that annoys just me? Maybe it even annoys the Threadless guys, I don’t know (link and link)
I see the tshirt market (amongst others) as being made up of two key demographics:
a) Innovators or lead users
You should always aim your product at this demographic. It automatically guarantees that you get regular customers. These guys buy everything, send you their cv every day, post on your blog, mail you requests and ideas, start fan sites http://www.lovesthreadless.com/category/designer-watch/ http://www.threadies.org/
b) Regular Consumers
This demographic follow innovators, but on the whole they dilute the experience for innovators and once everyone else climbs aboard your no longer feel innovative or different, you all become regular consumers. If they aren’t managed correctly they resent the increasingly popularity and will move on the the next thing to get that feeling of superiority or exclusivity that drives them. The regular customers eventually follow as they learn of the next cool party. Threadless used to be like a secret club, zero marketing meant that you were probably recommended it by a friend. It had that kind of exclusive club feel, you probably never saw anyone in a Threadless tee (well in the UK anyway, and if you did you’d probably acknowledge each other for it).
I’m probably totally wrong on my completely unfounded or researched market demographic breakdown, but hey there is a natural cycle to coolness and there is definitely a link to perceived size and popularity.
7. Er, I cant think of anymore
If I was the boss of Threadless what would I do?
Well print less or more mainly. Also and this is probably not an option now they have VC to answer to, but I would gate the community. 400,000 community members is more than enough. It makes absolutely no business sense which is why I think its has to be a good idea, move to the Oink model. You can’t buy anything unless your in the club. If you want in then you have to be recommended by an existing member, or submit a design, or rate 100 tshirts designs. Yeah its elitist, but you don’t have to make the entry barriers high. Keep your active community members as your primary customers and bring back the exclusive feel, demanding not encouraging involvement. They have the community and loyal fan base to pull this off (NOTE I wouldn’t make the cut, despite owning 15 or so tees I’ve never actually rated a design, my interest in Threadless is purely as an interesting case study, oh and place to buy 75% of my tshirts.). It wont make business sense but they are forecasting $15-20m in revenue already. There’s no reason why gating the community won’t allow that to grow and help keep that cool factor for longer.
Disclaimer’s
1) I love Theadless
I owe Threadless a lot, I’ve been collecting tshirts for years but it was my introduction to Threadless from a messageboard link a few years ago that kick started this blog, helped me get an excellent degree classification, my current job. They are like a website version of The Simpsons, absolutely everyone loves them and if you don’t you should rightly be outcast by society like some kind of social leper.
2) I work for a competitor in Spreadshirt/La Fraise
I can see why people would think I’m biased, I’d think that too. All I can say is I wear a Threadless tshirt at least two days a week into work and see at least 5 others during the working day, we are pro Threadless, this is a big marketplace!
Update: Since I wrote this post I’m impressed to say that Threadless have fixed a large number of these issues. They now print less of more (although they still reprint a little too often). They’ve raised the artist earnings per print, they now pay $500 for each reprint (big improvement!). They’ve segregated the community with topic types. They’ve also become massively massively huge and more popular than when I wrote this and compained they were to popular. I guess for some that’s a turn off, but now its a massive club, if you’re a fan of massive clubs then they do theirs very well and you should join. If its exclusivity you want, there are better places
Go check out the new improved Threadless changes.
lovely post!
1.
as i was reading your post, i was thinking that the same is happening with lafraise now that has been acquired by spreadshirt. It’s in a smaller scale, and with different issues(lower quality chosen submissions specially), but visible nonetheless.
reading your 2nd disclaimer, i have the feeling that you could give an insightfull view on this subject as you described this threadless issue, even if you’re actually working on one of the “sides” involved and it’s more difficult to be unbiased on this.
2.
i’ve never posted a comment here but i’ve been following your blog for over 4 months if i’m not mistaken, i really have to congratulate for your work here.
thanx
ctrnâ„¢
Wow!
Next time you put on a Threadless tee it’s going to dissolve in protest.
I see what you’re getting at, and I think that taking VC is a bad move. Ok, the company may not be able to grow much without it – but so what?
They were on to a great thing there. A fun, benevolent, trendy and successful company. I would take safe and slow growth over bigger profits in that situation, all day long.
Let’s see what Spreadshirt can do with La Fraise. I think that it’s a great brand, it would be a shame to see it spoilt. From what I’ve seen of Spreadshirt’s marketing so far I have faith in them I think.
Matt
Quite frankly I think you’re mixing your arguments. One one hand you want more profits so that artists can be paid more, and on another you want less focus on profits and more on community involvement.
It’s a difficult balance, quite frankly I think threadless just have to keep their company relating to their customers on a personal level rather than getting caught up in menial process.
There is enough profit for the artist to be paid more. If its financially viable to print a design once and pay $1,500 when you have less of an idea how well it will sell, then its definately financially viable to repay the artist something on the second print run when you know with greater certainty the success of the design.
I not saying focus less on profits per se, I think focusing more on the community secures long term profits. I dont think the two are mutually exclusive.
I just want to add found this article/blog an excellent read very well written and argued.
I do agree with alot of what you have said there but don’t know enough about some aspects that i disagree with, consider the page bookmarked.
Interesting article, and I agree with a lot of your points, but I don’t think the situation is too bad.
I do think they should move over to a higher quality of tee, and maybe even different ink. I only ever buy their tee’s on the $10 sales because I know that the shirt will end up fuzzy and the print will end up cracked. That and I only buy tee’s with street team points (the benefits of being a clothes blogger!)
I didn’t know about the VC funding, but it seems like a strange move to me, since their whole model seemed to be geared towards independence (especially after turning down offers from big name brands in the US). I wonder where they intend to go with this injection of cash.
About them being too popular, maybe where you live the people are just too cool, I’m pretty sure I’m the only person with Threadless tees in my whole county!
I agree with basically every point you make…
2) Shipping times: When I lived just outside of Chicago, I would get my order the day after it was placed. My most recent orders (which were placed almost a year ago…) took a few days just to ship.
3) Not only do they fit poorly, they are inconsistent: some shirts are randomly much larger than the others, even when it says they’re the same size.
6) I used to like Threadless because most people hadn’t seen their designs before, and there was that sense of community when you spotted somebody else sporting a Threadless tee (like you mentioned). Now I don’t purchase Threadless tees, don’t comment on others’, and hardly wear the ones I own. I am proud, however, to own a gray Pandamonium. Thankfully they didn’t reprint it in the same color!
[...] 7 reasons why Threadless don’t rule [...]
I highly dislike AA … as Joe points out, the sizing can be inconsistent, which is annoying especially for women, many of whom like a precise fit. AA female cuts also aren’t very accommodating, and I find none of the sizes fit me quite right … too tight in the chest, but too loose over the hips, or just right in the chest, but too tight over the hips, so it rides up slightly. It’s irritating.
I don’t know why people seem to praise AA so much. They may not fade as badly as Fruit of the Loom. They don’t even come pre-shrunk. I wouldn’t pay more for AA, but I’d pay for an alternative. I always found Bella, the choice of many webcomic shops, incredibly flattering and accommodating for the natural curves of a female body.
I joined Threadless in 2002, won their competition in 2003, and, in 2006, left the community for good. On one hand, I can’t help but marvel at the company’s success. On the other, I’m saddened by what has happened to it.
Today, Threadless is nothing more than MySpace with T-shirts. The Blog Forum is full of teenage losers who are more interested in talking about stupid things than discussing design. The competition (which is now more of a survey than an actual competition) is full of rip-off graphics and second-rate knock-offs of whatever graphic style is popular this month. As for the overall quality of their non-Select T-shirts, it’s dreadful. For a company that claims to sell over a million T-shirts a year, you’d think they’d step up their fabric and ink game.
I’d like to see more Threadless-style sites emerge. Right now, Threadless is so bloated and lame it would be nice to see an American site similar to Threadless ca. 2001-2004 pop up. I know several others who feel the same way.
If you’re a fan of Threadless, don’t take my comments as a personal insult. This is just the opinion of someone who watched the site grow up and doesn’t like what it has become. I have my opinion, you have yours.
[...] Last night I perused a number of articles describing the success of my favourite t-shirt store threadless, the first of which – over at 37Signals reviews in a positive light and the second in a more negative one. [...]
[...] This reminded me of a debate on Fast Company a few months ago, “Anyone can be a designer — and should be“, and a post from my colleague Adam on Threadless and the “burden” of their popularity. Of course, this is an age old debate on who should be the arbiter of beauty. [...]
Thank you! I’m so glad someone finally said it. It seems like any time you say something that might be negative toward Threadless (like how shipping is taking longer and longer), there are always people attacking you and making you feel stupid (maybe just me).
This also remindes me; the blogs use to be so nice and welcoming! Like you said, people are only talking about random crap, on top of that, they’re all incredibly rude and a bunch of smart asses. It also seems more and more like high school, it’s all cliquey. They like to jump on your blog and talk more about random crap and things that have nothing to do with the blog… and then you never get your question answered!
Ugh. It’s a shame really. I use to like Threadless so much.
So, who’s the next to replace Threadless?
the next Threadless? why Terratag of course…..
watch this space, http://www.terratag.com
Or the fantastic Customdogs. I bought a Tee of them recently
they dont use fruit of the loom. There designs are limitied to 100 then there gone a new company but with really good designs.
Hoodies are really nice to good value.
customdogs.co.uk
I totally agree with your number 3 points. I was shocked when I received my very first order. Never thought it would be very err.. thin. It’s like it may be easily torn and will not lasts long. I ordered several tees for my kid and I am very dissappointed to see the designs fading slowly (as I had to do extra scrubbing while cleaning his dirty clothes)
Oh my..
And not to mention the shipping charges. It’s doubled the exact amount displayed on the parcel. I’m in Asia country, and the threadless shipping charges costs more than the price of a tee!
[...] The original post from last year is here. [...]